When I did this interview for Episode 47, neither Jeff nor I realized it would be his last interview. Jeff Klein, CEO of Working for Good, Executive Director of BeingHuman.org, award winning author of Working for Good & It’s Just Good Business, evangelist of Conscious Capitalism, and evolver of humanity through conscious business passed away in June 2014.
Jeff was a true visionary who dedicated every breathing moment to making his life on this Earth matter, & leaving behind a massive positive impact. How he lived his life was a true inspiration to me and to the thousands of people he touched.
Jeff Klein was a man who lived an exuberant life on purpose. He worked with CEOs to develop conscious cultures around their companies that engaged customers and stakeholders towards their shared purpose and values. More than that, he was an example of how to live life in alignment with your true calling.
I am truly honored to have been able to spend this hour getting to know Jeff, hearing his ideas & being able to share his powerful message through this podcast.
I invite you to listen to his words, experience his enthusiasm and join his mission to unleash a movement of conscious capitalists turning business into an unstoppable force for good.
Words of Inspiration from Jeff Klein
On discovering his purpose:
I had this epiphany a calling, a voice, or whatever it is that said: “Your mission, should you accept, is to leverage the power of business for the greater good, and in the process, your work will be your spiritual practice, right. And you can say that was just the integration and processing of all these thoughts I had but it became really clear to me, and I was like, “Okay! Reporting for duty! Now what do I do from here?
On fulfilling his purpose:
Now here I am at Conscious Capitalism, Being Human, Working for Good, I am doing exactly what I set out to do, I had no idea what it looked like.
How to handle failure:
I am affirmed to the fact that if you head in a general direction & touch back with that purpose – continually use it as your ground – don’t be afraid to fall on your face & get up. As long as you get up – it’s the getting up that matters. You end up somewhere.
The power of your living purpose:
Pursue a life of meaning and purpose, and out of the end service and lead with that, and the other stuff comes.
The most effective way to change the world through business:
So are we advancing our purpose, and are we advancing our business, and typically I ask those questions in that order, but you want to be doing both. And if the answer is: “Yes, we are advancing our purpose”, and the purpose is a noble one, that it really feeds you and guides you, and you’re feeding your business which is oriented to the purpose, then you’re doing the right thing, until circumstances change and you have to adapt
On optimizing your human experience:
As with the waves, such is life, you learn not to resist the stuff that takes you down, but just go with it and then bounce up, and learn: “Okay, what did I learn from that one?” And then you go back again and you apply what you learn there, and you don’t necessarily “muscle apply”, your being is now wiser, more intelligent, and “Okay, adjust that. “Oh, that one’s different! That experience or that wave, I did that, and I just tripped, or I just flew in a good way. Oh, I’m gonna do more of that!” So if you stay with it, you ultimately develop certain skills and capacities and then as you said, then it gets really fun!
Now I’m in flow more than not, and flow is really an awesome place to be.
If you’re out there Jeff, surfing the celestial waves and at one with the Divine Flow, and you can hear this, I thank you for the gift of your message, the honor of sharing your story, & the inspiration to keep the torch of conscious capitalism shining brightly.
Download the Master Class
In Jeff’s Conscious Leadership Master Class, Jeff shares:
- The four principles of conscious capitalism and how it applies to business.
- The keys to becoming a conscious leader – and where to begin.
- Whether it’s possible to be both conscious and profitable at the same time.
- Which companies do a great job in practicing conscious capitalism & creating conscious cultures.
- What a conscious company culture looks and feels like.
- Why culture is a company’s unique competitive advantage.
- What big successful companies do right and what struggling startups do wrong.
- The secret to entrepreneurial success.
- The secret to being in the Flow.
- And much, much more
Mentioned in this interview
- Dan Gilbert, Stumbling On Happiness
- John Mackey, Whole Foods Market
- Michael Strong
- Peter Baumann
- One Coconut Water
- Doug Rauch
- Laura Roberts
- Pantheon Enterprises
- Seeds of Change
- Dane Rudhyar
- The Container Store
- The Motley Fool
- Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi
- Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience
Where to Find Jeff
Full Episode Transcript
Lorna Li: Hi, Jeff. It’s such a pleasure to connect with you on my podcast. I have to say it’s been quite some time that you and I have crossed paths in the San Francisco Bay Area Sustainable Business space. I’m really glad to have this opportunity to get to know you better. I’d love to ask you to please introduce yourself to my audience. Tell us who you are and what is your business.
Jeff Klein: Thank you, Lorna. That is assuming of course that I know who I am.
Lorna: That’s a lifelong journey.
Jeff: Do any of us really know who we are? That’s a whole other conversation. My name is Jeff Klein. My business is called Working for Good, and my title is activator, author, producer, and process facilitator. Short for that is CEO. I do conscious marketing and business development and event production. I serve as director of marketing and business development for Conscious Capitalism Inc., and I produce the two annual Conscious Capitalism events.
I also serve as the executive director and executive producer for a project called Being Human and produce an annual Being Human event, and I do some other consulting kind of conscious culture and stakeholder engagement marketing consulting. My primary other client is called Pantheon Enterprises which is a conscious chemistry company. And then, I have conversations like this and I have written a couple of books and generally live in the space of Conscious Capitalism conscious business.
Lorna: So tell us more about the Conscious Capitalism Inc. events. When are they usually and what do they focus on?
Jeff: There are two events. The longest running one is the annual CEO Summit which is at the beginning of October. For the last several years and for this year, it will be in Austin, Texas and by next year, we’re planning to be back there again. At some point, it might move. It’s a gathering this year it will be around 200 CEOs and presidents of companies, principally of companies of $10 million and up of revenues, though we have some smaller. Most of them are mid market companies and then we have some large including large publicly-traded companies.
The focus there is advancing people’s understanding and practical application of the principles of Conscious Capitalism. And as much as anything, it’s really an opportunity to come together with a peer community. The Spring event which is in April – it was in San Diego this year, San Francisco last year and next year, it will be in Chicago although you are the first person that knows that outside of the very small operating team. We haven’t booked it yet, but anyway it’ll be April in Chicago.
That one is open more broadly. This year we had over 400 CEOs and their executive teams, executives not coming with teams, coaches and consultants and thought leaders and others. The event is similar in some respect though more of the focused on the practical application, fewer speeches, keynotes and more of practicums or workshops. In both of them, really community is an essential piece. Just bringing together great people who learn with and from each other and just to enjoy being with each other and kind of give each other juice.
Lorna: Wow, that sounds really exciting. So I’m going to make sure we get Conscious Capitalism onto our events resource list so that folks out there who want to connect with likeminded business professionals know where to go.
Lorna: Tell me more about BeingHuman.org. That sounds really exciting actually.
Jeff: It is. I just came from a 2-hour Being Human meeting with our core team and evolutionary theorist from Seattle named Brett Weinstein, who spoke last night on sexual evolution. Really fascinating conversation, really looking at where we are as human beings as a collective, and our state of being and consciousness. One of the things that Brett said was what we tend to do as species and have for thousands of years is we operate using the wisdom of previous generations, kind of the elders and ancestors program, and then we get to a place where the context, the complexity of the world around us is such that the old ways of doing things don’t work anymore and that forces us to wake up and open to a higher level of consciousness and come up with a whole new paradigm or whole new way of orienting.
Being Human project is really looking at the question of – well, we say the science and mystery of human experience. Why do we experience life the way we do both individually and collectively, and where might we be heading? So that’s what the project is about and we bring together scientists and philosophers and people who are curious to explore these questions. This year we have our annual event, which we’re doing on an evening series in San Francisco. Then we have our annual event on November 8th. Dan Gilbert, the author of Stumbling on Happiness, is one of the leads of that event. So that’s the snapshot.
Lorna: Wow. That sounds so exciting. I’d love to just dig in more to some of the topics that you guys cover. I’m so curious. What was the take on human sexuality?
Jeff: Well, it was interesting because what Brett did was showed us some of the underlying patterns in nature in other species and how and why they evolved. In some cases, human beings do things reversed. But the bottom line so to speak is that the combination of evolution and what we’re given through evolution and then our perception are the things that define our experience of sex and of our sexual relation.
There’s both understanding why did things develop a certain way, why did certain behaviors emerge, and then, what is our relationship to those behaviors. If we recognize, for instance, that women sexual behavior is driven by their biology and the fact that they’re carrying baby for nine months and then they’re pretty vulnerable afterwards etc. And man, one of the things that drives males in all species is knowing that their genes are carried forward. So in some species, you know it immediately, right?
If there is a hard egg like a chicken or something, the egg comes out, you know what’s yours. You don’t have to worry about it. But with the human beings, you don’t know for nine months or you may never know. So there’s more of an incentive from a biological genetic standpoint to just spread the seed around. There are things like that and if you understand that these are the evolutionary drives, then you can understand your behavior and by understanding your behavior, you can either be okay with it or you can exercise some sort of discipline or actions that mitigate those natural drives.
It’s complex. I’m trying to make it a little simple. It’s complex stuff because there’s so many factors and forces. I’ll state this. I’m having the conversation with Brett this afternoon. One of the most fascinating things that he said is and it was looking at the difference between the various species of birds, for instance, on the Galapagos Island. How the same general bird type – they’re literally the different species.
He said that humans – we consider Homo sapiens to be one species, but actually there is more difference and in certain respects, there is more difference between us based on culture and geography, where we grow up and the culture we’re in, and how we grow up and treat is as cultures to adapt to the circumstances of where we developed, and then the program and the cultural programming that happens with each individual. There’s more differences. There’s many differences as there are similarities and that really human beings are more – if we look at us the way we look at the birds, there’s more than one species. It’s not one species.
It’s really interesting, fascinating insight which helps us to understand why the differences are so profound indeed. You look at some of the cultural conflicts etc. They are different animals. It was really interesting.
Lorna: Yes. It is quite fascinating because there is so many – yes, exactly. Our different cultures almost make us like different species. And it’s interesting that you kind of brought up the whole knowledge of parentage question because that reminds of me of a matriarchal society in China, where all the property is passed through the women. The women are the heads of the household. When a man marries a woman, he joins the matriarchal family. The reason why property and the lineage is passed to the woman is because – and it was pretty simple for them.
You don’t really know who the father of your child is but you sure as hell know who the mother is.
Jeff: That’s right.
Lorna: Great. So I want to ask you about your consulting work and the clients that you work with specifically what kinds of clients do you work with and who do you help?
Jeff: Well first of all, I really focus on long term relationships so I’ve been involved with Conscious Capitalism since the beginning, since before it was Conscious Capitalism. It emerged out of a nonprofit called Flow which John Mackey, co-CEO of Whole Foods Market co-founder and a guy named Michael Strong started. And then I met them and they asked me if I would run it and build it. Out of Flow, Conscious Capitalism emerged as a project and then eventually, it had so much energy and it was taking so much of our attention that we spun off our other programs and change the name of the organization.
So I’ve been involved with Conscious Capitalism since 2005. In one way or another, I was executive director and I’m a director now and I’m a consultant and produce the events. With the Being Human project, I work with Peter Dallman, the founder of that, in 1984-built record company called Private Music. We work together for seven years and then again in the ‘90s, we did a project in Southern Baja, Mexico together. A few years ago, he asked me if I would run his foundation and out of that emerged Being Human project.
That’s years and in some ways, you could say decades. Now, with Pantheon, I’ve been working with them for eight years. I work with One Coconut Water during marketing business development for three years. So I tend to do longer relationships. I’m not interested in kind of jumping in and doing little projects. I do. I did a 2-day executive retreat for Driscolls, the very company last year on stakeholder engagement, and I did something for GenenTech executive group last year. Every once in a while, I’ll do something that – these are pretty substantial projects and I work with other people.
I dive in and dig in and own it. I own my relationship with them. So I’m not really looking for clients. It’s more about continuing to serve others through the work of my clients.
Lorna: And so when you serve them, is a major part of what you do is helping them create events or helping them through your extensive network, connecting them with additional partners or business communities?
Jeff: Well, it’s both of those things but it’s more than that. I remember what’s coming to mind is I have friends who I consulted with for several years. I helped them activate an online music service that’s still going 10 years later and sell a record company they had. Leila once said or Steven, he said, “Working with Jeff is like having a president for hire.” I become a part of the team even if I’m called the consultant and just playing an integral role in the overall development of the organization – its process, its project.
I show up as a team member and in some respect, as a leader and a facilitator. I mentioned that, process facilitator. So I do a lot of facilitation and meetings and calls and meeting design for clients and process design. With Conscious Capitalism, Doug Rauch who’s our CEO, you know, we’re thought partners. He’s got something he’s working through, he’ll call me up and we’ll talk about it and likewise.
With Laura Roberts, the CEO of Pantheon, who I’m talking to when we’re done here, whenever she has an issue that’s up for her that she needs to address, she said, “Hey, Jeff. I think I could use some help with board development,” or “We got this project that my team is working on but it doesn’t feel like it’s really moving. Could you step in and see if you can might be able to help out?” That one was developing a proposal for an R&D project for a client.
I really do whatever is called for to move things along. Facilitation means to make easy to facilitate, to foster movement and I am fortunate that I’ve done lots of entrepreneurial activity. I was in Delta Music Company. I managed a recording artist to help start a fitness program called Spinning Night, ran an organic seed company, now food company called of Seeds of Change. So I’ve done lots of different things – entrepreneurial, marketing, business development, sales, operations, general management – so I can bring all of those skills to bear.
I’m a generalist and wherever I can see that I can add value, I’ll offer my hand. I tend to attract clients and keep them for a very long time because I can create value in lots of different ways.
Lorna: I have to say, first of all, you sound really versatile. Secondly, it sounds like you found a really great space to play in which sounds like a hell of a lot of fun coming in and just becoming a team member and a leader and working on a variety of different projects to help the organizations grow and thrive. It all sounds like really great stuff. I’m curious to know because you seem like a bit of a classic serial entrepreneur. What inspired you to do this to begin with? Was there some kind of aha moment?
Jeff: It’s funny. As you were reflecting on what you’re hearing, I flashed to a moment. I think it was during my senior year in college and I was having dinner with my father who built a small business and ran it for 40 years and then sold it and then retired. It was pretty straightforward in some respects and he was an entrepreneur. He was, “What the heck are you going to do?” Because I was all over the place. I said, “Well, Dad. I don’t know, but I know I’m going to do lots of different things. I’m not interested in doing one thing. I want to be involved in lots of different things.” He’s gone, “Okay. Good luck with that one.”
Here I am some 40 years later. That’s exactly what I’m doing. Then another, really the aha thing, is I had this sense. I always had this sense that my job was to make things better somehow, make a difference. I had no idea what that meant. I got at one point that business was the most powerful form of human organization. It’s where all the power lied in the planet. So I recognize that I needed to be involved in business, and then two, I recognized that marketing was the channel through which most people receive most of their information.
And If I was going to be effective in social transformation and making things better whatever you want to call it, that I needed to understand the art. I was interested more in the art than the science, that the art of marketing. So I really set out to develop my understanding and expertise in that. I have fair degree of success in that domain. At one point, again around at that same time at middle end of college, I had this epiphany, a voice or a calling or whatever, that said, “Your mission should you accept is to leverage the power of business for the greater good and in the process, your work or work will be your spiritual practice.”
You could say that was just the integration and processing of all these thoughts I had but it came really clear to me. I was like, “Okay, reporting for duty. Now, what do I do from here?” And so I spent years if not decades with a machete trying to figure out what that meant. I was not really inclined to be a foot soldier and work my way up a corporate ladder. I didn’t really want to build a big infrastructure, so here I am doing what I’ve been doing for the last 35 years which is helping to build things, helping to fix things, getting things moving that are stuck, elevating the consciousness, and embody consciousness the way that people practice and learning along the way.
Now, I look and I see, “Here I am Conscious Capitalism, Being Human, Working for Good. I’m doing exactly what I set out to do.” I had no idea what it would look like, but I am affirmed to the fact that if you headed on a general direction and touch back with that purpose continually, use it as your ground, and don’t be afraid to fall on your face and get up. As long as you get up, it’s the getting up that matters. You end up somewhere.
Lorna: [Laughs] Yes, absolutely. I know that with entrepreneurs being a rather risk taking segment of the human population falling down, a lot can happen. So I’m curious because entrepreneurship is really not an easy path for everyone. It can involve a lot of falling down and that can be like ego crushing and difficult. Especially if you are talking about entrepreneurs who might actually be faced with some serious financial implications to failure. But I’m curious to know the flipside of what drives you to walk the path of entrepreneurship and specifically if there’s any personal story that you’d like to share that really expresses why do this and why you find this journey meaningful to you.
Jeff: The short answer is really simple. I have no choice. I’m going to quote a deceased French philosopher, composer, astrologer named Dane Rudhyar who said, “The truly free man has no choice. He simply does what is called to be done.” Really it is in a certain respect, it’s the only answer I can give. I don’t have a choice. It’s just who I am and it’s just how I am. We think we have a choice but really, we don’t know what’s going on under the hood back to the being human piece.
The other thing that I would say is whatever in my biological or genetic composition, cultural, from family, etc., I just have this kind of perseverance and persistence and you might want to say thick-headedness. Probably, those have a heavier weight on me or they inform me more than ego meaning the fear of being ridiculed. Mind you, I went through a very long time of many people thinking I was out of my mind. Like, “What are you doing?” and “What are you doing again, and now what are you doing?”
It wasn’t easy. In your heart, you’ve gotten your question. You doubt yourself sometimes and you feel like crap because you get all these ridicule or doubt from other people. But at the end of the day, I just had to follow this sense of knowing, called the sense of purpose and a bullheaded persistence that said, “You know what, I don’t have a choice.”
I’m 56 and 40 years ago I started surfing. I spend the better part of a year and a half, two years catching very few waves but going out a lot and paddling a lot. I am now surfing every day, sometimes twice a day. I won’t judge, but I could surf, right? I can catch pretty good size of waves. I can catch difficult waves partly because I have surfed at a really hard surf rate, but it’s that same, “If it doesn’t kill you, it makes you stronger.” It’s kind of cliché but it really is true.
As for the waves such as in life, if you learn not to resist the stuff that takes you down but just go with it and then bounce up and learn, okay, what did I learn from that one? And then you go back again and then you apply what you learn there and you don’t necessarily muscle apply. Your being as now wiser, more intelligent. “Okay, adjust that. Oh that was different. That experience or that wave, I did that.” I just tripped or I just flew in a good way. It’s like, “I got to do more of that.” Right?
I think if you stay with it, you ultimately develop certain skills and capacities and then as you said, then it gets really fun. I can’t say that I’ve had fun on the last 35 years. I have been deeply connected to and engaged in my work because if I’m not, I quit. I will not do anything that I’m not passionate about and it doesn’t feel aligned. I just, “Sorry guys. I got to go.” But it doesn’t mean it was always fun and joyful. Now, I’m in flow. I got to think more than that and flow is a really awesome place to be.
That was maybe little long. Maybe it didn’t exactly address your question of a specific instance. But you want to add? Is that alright?
Lorna: No, but you gave us so much other wisdom instead so totally alright. But I’m curious to know because you wrote a book about this topic. You clearly have a very purpose-driven and passionate entrepreneurial life. That kind of debunks a lot of the “messages” that we get in society that you can’t possibly make a difference while you’re making a living. You either have to get that soul sucking job and then earn some money and then okay, if you want to do good, then you volunteer on the weekends. Of course, the whole goal is to make a lot of money first so then eventually, you can give it away to charities.
So I’m curious to know like how is it possible to do both in an integrated abundance-generating way, where what you do for work is what’s making a difference.
Jeff: First of all, I’ve got to say, there is no one way, right? I do not presume, pretend or care to have a formula because I don’t believe in formulas at least not for this kind of thing. I guess formula is for making chemicals or products or something but not how to direct a life. That is caveat. The other thing I’ll say is I know and I’ve observed dozens if not hundreds of human beings who have done exactly what you just referred to in which I would presume I have which is pursue a life of meaning and purpose and out of the end service and lead with that and the other stuff comes.
Not that you don’t pay attention to okay, “How much am I putting in? Can I afford to pay my bills?” You pay attention to it but it’s not what you lead with. It’s really simple. It just works. Again, I won’t presume or pretend to say that it absolutely can work for everyone because not everyone has the same tolerance to risk or maybe the same capacity for being comfortable, broke or maybe they have a family and they just need to make sure that they’re making a certain amount of money and whatever it is, whatever the reasons are. Not everyone can necessarily do this, but I think more and more people can and what I have observed that more and more people are.
In the Millennials, for instance, certainly all research done about them that says they absolutely require that the companies they work for and buy from etc. share their values. They want both meaning and money. Now, the extent to which their behavior follows their beliefs, it’s obviously not 100% because it’s not with anyone but there is this general orientation towards an expectation that we’re both. We both do good and we both take care of ourselves and enjoy life and elevate the physical circumstances of our lives.
I think that’s an increasing expectation and I can say this without any reservation or hesitation that there are hundreds if not – well, there are thousands. But I know of hundreds and hundreds of businesses that are orienting this way or the business themselves are saying, “We exist for a purpose, and we’re here to create value for everyone for all of our stakeholders, for our customers, our employees, our vendors, our investors, the communities we do business with, natural ecosystems etc. We’re going to care for people and support them and continue to learn, grow, and develop.”
And in that process, you create a really healthy ecosystem which is fruitful. Healthy ecosystems put out a lot of fruit. Fruit meaning whatever the fruit is, so they’re financially abundant.
I think that more and more people are going to be doing business working this way. It may impart because more and more businesses are going to do business this way which means they’re going to be encouraging people to have purposeful work. They’re going to look for people who resonate with their purpose and who have a passion for being alive in their work.
Ultimately, it will be the predominant pattern. You’d say, “Well, it’s not the way it is and it’s not what we’re told well.” That’s fine. It’s an old story and the book is falling apart. A new story and a new book is being written and created.
Lorna: Yes. I certainly hope so because we do need to make a shift in terms of how we do business since business has such a powerful impact on our planet and on humanity.
Jeff: Yes, it does.
Lorna: I feel like I have so many more questions for you, but let’s start to wrap up this interview as well because we’re running out of time. So quickly: you teach three courses on conscious business on Entheos.com. Can you tell us a little bit more about them and what students might be able to get from the coursework or program?
Jeff: I’m about to record a couple more courses there. Actually I did some earlier ones as well. One on Working for Good, Conscious Awareness, but the three that I recently did are how to become a conscious leader, how to cultivate a conscious culture, and how to build a conscious business. The way their format works is they have 10 principal ideas for each one and then you unpack them during the conversation.
So if you go and check out those courses, you’ll get some more of my insights and perhaps a little bit more of a structured way than this conversation. They’re all structured and related to each other in some way because it’s all an integrated process with leadership, with culture, and overall approach to creating conscious business.
Lorna: Yes, definitely. So in your experience in your career of being in the conscious business space, what have you observed is the most effective way to change the world?
Jeff: Well, first of all, again, this is coming from my Being Human perspective which I guess looks at the context which we’re having this conversation. One of the frames, one of the contextual frames is 3.8 billion years of evolution. My favorite book of all times is the Dalai teaching and there’s a passage in there which essentially says, “So you want to change the world? Well, the world doesn’t want to be changed. It’s perfect the way it is.”
The presumption to change the world is not something that I necessarily carry anymore; I certainly did for a long time. Rather, my orientation now is to ride the emergent waves in the evolutionary unfolding and perhaps, ride the extent to which our joining with the waves amplifies them and accelerates their expression, then if this wave that’s emerging, I call it conscious business and finding better ways to survive and propagate and flourish as species and as individuals and cultures.
If putting our attention and energy in cultivating something helps it emerge, then that’s what we’re doing here. So that’s the context and the best way is whatever works for you. Literally, whatever works and we’ll know better whatever works in the longer term. So I’ve become one passionate and intense and focused and productive. I’m not so attached to a specific, it’s this way or no way but here’s some patterns that are emerging that give us a sense of how you do this.
Ultimately, you got to put the feet on the streets, so to speak. You got to do the work and see how that actually works in your context, both internal context, yourself, your team, your business, your industry and the marketplace, and all of that. See, “Is this working?” Is it working to flourish as an organization and is it fulfilling the purpose, which, again, if you’re orienting this way, then your purpose is going to have a life-enhancing dimension to it.
If you’re checking in, “Are we advancing our purpose?” And at the same time recognizing that the organization needs certain things to sustain itself and be flourished. So are we advancing our purpose and are we advancing our business? Typically, I ask those questions in that order but you want to be doing both. If the answer is yes, we’re advancing our purpose and the purpose is a noble one that really feeds you and guides you and you’re feeding your business which is oriented to the purpose, then you’re doing the right thing until circumstances change and you have to adapt.
Lorna: Great. Well, thank you so much for sharing with us your wisdom and experience. How can we best stay in touch with you, Jeff?
Jeff: Best place is probably WorkingForGood.com and then of course, there’s ConsciousCapitalism.org and BeingHuman.org.
Lorna: Alright. Well, great. Thank you so much and you have a beautiful day.
Jeff: You, too. Thank you, Lorna.
Lorna: Thank you.
[END OF RECORDING]
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